Are We Too Sophisticated for Demons?

While teaching through the Gospel of Mark, I've found it increasingly difficult to dismiss the significant role deliverance from demon posession/obsession plays in the in-breaking of God's kingdom.  Jesus drives out demons (1:34,39; 5:8; 7:29; 9:25), the disciples drive out demons (6:13), outsiders drive out demons (9:38), in fact, all who believe in Jesus will be driving out demons (16:17)!  But when was the last time that you or I drove out a demon? 

In our modern, enlightenment-influenced age, I fear we are quick to diagnose "troubled" people as having a host of psychological and/or neurological disorders, but slow (if at all) at attributing anything to demonic influences.  Why is that?  Is it because we are much more a man or woman of science than we care to admit? Is it because of unfortunate abuses we have witnessed in years past?  Is it because we're embarassed to believe in demonic activity anymore?  Or is it because we've become far too sophisticated for such primative notions as demons and the like?

That said, it's an uncomfortable thought -- minimizing, trivializing, or alegorizing the demonic encounters in the Gospels.  Am I alone in this, or have you found yourself thinking the same?

Comments

[Seraphim]

Chris,

R U a glutton for punishment or what? Wow man. Why can't you be a 5 minute drive away. Cali-damn-fornia. Sigh. And I live in Virginia. I have 3 thoughts about this.

Demons are real. Sometimes a person has a demon. Mental illness is real. Sometimes a person has a mental illness. Sometimes one is masquarading as the other.

Sometimes a person has both.

While at the Vineyard, I believe I saw folk who had a Mental Illness acting out 'as if' they were demonized... and I really don't think that they were. Cause they only 'manifested the demon' during services times or in kinship groups. hmm. too convenient.

Anywho, I don't think that demons are as active this side of the cross as before it. But I do believe that demon activity still exists.

LYB

Seraphim

[Chris]

Seraphim,
"Anywho, I don't think that demons are as active this side of the cross as before it. But I do believe that demon activity still exists."

Would you attribute this to the "already/not-yet" aspect of God's kingdom?

"Cali-damn-fornia." Hmmm. Do we have more demons out here??? ;)

[Suzi]

Yes, I believe that there are demons. Yes, I believe that demons are still around today. I also believe that sometimes mental illness is demons and sometimes it is mental illness.

And the last time I did anything like "drive a demon out" was when my family and I prayed over a part of the house that had people in it when people weren't there. My sisters would see someone running through that part of the house, jumping out the window, etc. (They were in their teens.) After we prayed, there were no more people there who didn't belong.

[Seraphim]

"Would you attribute this to the "already/not-yet" aspect of God's kingdom?

Yes. Specifically the fact that on the Cross Christ Triumphed once & for all over Death, Sin & the Devil.

"Cali-damn-fornia." Hmmm. Do we have more demons out here??? ;)"

This is just my frustration that alot of the folk I'd like to be 'church with' are on the opposite coast.

LYB

Seraphim

[Chris]

Suzi, I had a similar experience when in High School (not in my house, but in a hotel in Vienna). After my friends and I prayed, no more "appearances".

[Benjy]

I know someone who is an authority on the topic that you will be able to ask personally in less than a month!

[Chris]

Benjy, you'll have to blog about that ahead of time and then leave a post here with a link to all the info!

[mumcat]

I've got to go against the majority here. I see people using "demons" as excuses to avoid accepting responsibility for their own actions or to explain their acting in ways that they normally would not.

I don't totally discount demon activity, but I do believe that a lot of what people attribute to "demons" is wrapped up in the above activities. To blame everything on demons is, imvho, to give them too much power.

Bring on the matches. I already brought the wood.

[Carlos]

I would like to suggest Michael W. Cuneo's American Exorcism : Expelling Demons in the Land of Plenty (www.amazon.com) as an appropriate reading for the subject.

I echo mumcat except they are not excuses but psychological defense mechanisms of self. When those who are to blame cannot or will not bear it, a person sometimes flees into a realm where it can find demons to blame. They become manifestations of unspoken and unheard feelings. Feelings of anger that turn against self after being abused that nobody wants to hear about or deal with, especially if they originate in incest, child abuse and such.

[Seraphim]

mumcat said:

"'ve got to go against the majority here. I see people using "demons" as excuses to avoid accepting responsibility for their own actions or to explain their acting in ways that they normally would not.

To blame everything on demons is, imvho, to give them too much power.

Are you even reading the same blog as the rest of us? 2 of us speak of mental illness, I myself spoke of situations where the mentally ill may have been conditioned to act out as 'demonized'... however it would be very dangerous to come to the conclusion that demon's don't exist....

[Chris]

Carlos,
"...they are not excuses but psychological defense mechanisms of self."

Do you believe this is true in all cases, or would you concede the possibility of demonic activity in some instances?

[Benjy]

I just ordered the book that was mentioned last week, before Chris even posted this.

We are hosting a special guest author and speaker who has a ton of experience in this area at the end of the month. We will try to record the session and make the mp3 available.

[Chris]

Stop holding out on us, Benjy. Who is this special speaker you've got coming?

[Carlos Ferrer]

Chris, I'm a bit of an agnostic when it comes to demons. Let me put it this way, I'll initiate the ritual of excorcism when other methods, psychology, pastoral counselling and prayer do not work (hasn't happened in my ministry yet). I find that Occams razor still sharp and good for dealing with demons.

My point is that very often and very quickly into a counselling session it should be clear whether a client is overwhelmed because s/he hasn't been able to express his or her grievance, and is not being understood. If so, s/he searches for other routes of communication. Demons can become a handy alibi, if they are accepted by the culture as a legitimate scource of grief. In Iceland ghosts and elves can traditionally take this place and still do.

I think that the "reality of demons" should be considered as something like a last resort and with extreme prejudice. I would always get a few extra opinions before treating somebody for demon possession.

[Carlos]

I think that demons are extremely thinly documented in the Bible. They are part of Jesus' ministry, but almost anecdotal. If they were a major problem, like f. ex. self righteousness or superficiality of faith, our instructions on how to deal with them would have been more substantial, one would think, in the epistles for instance or in the old testament.

They are a late addition to the biblical people's faith, an import from Persia's dualistic belief. Before that Satan and his host was part of the God's court, the DA if you like (as in Job).

Then there is the problem of how demonisation is used as a diminuation of problems. You cast out a demon and "hey, presto" the problem disapears ...

[Seraphim]

Calos says: instructions on how to deal with them would have been more substantial, one would think, in the epistles for instance or in the old testament.

um, what about the Gospels? "Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1, Luke 10:19, Matthew 17:21 & Mark 9:29" So the Words of Jesus arn't good enough?

They are a late addition to the biblical people's faith, an import from Persia's dualistic belief. Before that Satan and his host was part of the God's court, the DA if you like (as in Job).

What Bible are you reading man?

[Benjy]

paradox will be hosting special guest Dr. Charles Kraft, author and professor on Sunday October 30th. We invite everyone in southern california or in driving distance to visit us!

(link fixed by Chris)

[Chris]

Carlos, I've long believed that many instances of so-called "demon posession" have in fact been something else (as I described above). That as it is, It bothers me how quickly moderns dismiss the reality of demonic activity. I agree that exorcism is rare in Paul, but that doesn't minimize his concerns over the evil powers at work in our world (e.g. Rom.8:38-39;1 Cor.2:6-8;Eph.6:10-18) under the influence of the Devil.

In today's postmodern world, people are increasingly looking to realities other than those explainable by science. Spirituality is therefore on the rise, and with it, a growing fascination with the suprarational and supernatural. Our ancient faith is replete with these.

Enlightenment thinking and related scholarship taught us to be suspicious of the supernatural and even to dismiss it. We learned from this, yes, but not enough to reduce the bible's witness of the demonic to mere myth or anecdote.

I am certainly not contending for a return to the ridiculous actions of some who looked for demons under every rock and around every corner. Rather, I suspect that as those living in-between the times of the establishing of God's already and not-yet kingdom, we need to re-evaluate our theology and practice concerning the dark forces which Jesus (and believers through time) contended with.

[Chris]

Seraphim, Carlos is likely reading the same Bible as you and I. It seems, however, that he subscribes to a school of biblical interpretation which views Israel's religious development as syncretistic rather than independant (i.e. influenced by the beliefs of their neighbors). If that's the case, it's reflective of a type of liberalism which is rapidly losing ground in today's postmodern conversation. The rules are changing; the liberal-conservative scholarship battles are pretty much over. We're living in a both-and reality now. Old school liberals and old school conservatives are both having to change, and it's exciting to see some common ground coming into view.

[Seraphim]

Seraphim, Carlos is likely reading the same Bible as you and I. It seems, however, that he subscribes to a school of biblical interpretation which views Israel's religious development as syncretistic rather than independant (i.e. influenced by the beliefs of their neighbors).

ah, interpretation, interpretation. I understand. But just because their are elements of God's Story in other Culture's stories pre-bible doesn't invalidate the Inspired-ness of the Bible. I really like what C.S. Lewis said: "He sent the human race what I call good dreams: I mean those queer stories scattered all through the heathen religions about a god who dies and comes to life again and, by his death, has somehow given new life to men." (mere christianity)

The rules are changing; the liberal-conservative scholarship battles are pretty much over. We're living in a both-and reality now. Old school liberals and old school conservatives are both having to change, and it's exciting to see some common ground coming into view. Amen. I guess I should be happy that people can so easily discount the 'demonic'. Cause it means that they have not encountered such, cause when you do, it's hard Not to believe.

Thank you for your forberance. Love ya man.

Seraphim

[Benjy]

I think the movie Exorcism of Emily Rose does a pretty good job of showing both sides of where people are at on this issue. You are right Chris, many people (christians included) have a hard time accepting both satan and demons as physical, literal beings.

On the other hand, there are many instances which logic alone can't explain.

I think most of the problem has to do with language. Possession is a word we overuse. I think very few people are actually demon possessed, and we see the Catholic Church only approving the rite of exorcisim every so often, sometimes not for decades at a time.

A better term would be demonized, which shows how evil spirits could influence people in different degrees, including christians.

[Linda]

Oooh, Dr. Charles (Chuck) Kraft is the BOMB! I've been to his ministry several times. And he's just the coolest christian you ever could meet.

Linda :)

[FrMatt]

Wow! What a hot topic. I first encountered the demonic while ministering in Amsterdam, where I lived and preached for four years. There was a huge amount of demonic activity there. In fact, right in front of the Central Train Station a young man wanted to recieve Jesus after I preached. He was a Hells Angel, and as we spoke he began to manifest like crazy, screaching in a witchy voice, cursing, and trancing out. In the end he ran off through the crowd (about 150) screeming. Since then deliverance has come up from time to time as part of my ministry. I can verify that it is real, that often "dual diagnosis" should be a triple diagnosis (Addiction, mental disorder, and demonic disorder)and that in many cases deliverance, inner healing, spiritual directon and behavior therapy that rescipts the brain all have to come together.

[Carlos]

Hi again, Chris, Seraphim and the rest. It's a good topic indeed to cover. Looong comment is coming. You may want to cut it out and make it into a different posting.

1. I do subscribe to biblical inspriration, but not in any literal sense. It doesn't make sense to me that one can open and close "Gods word", put it into a cupboard, light a fire and burn it or rip it to shreds. Rather, Gods word is in the eye and mind of the reader, who is taken by it captive and has to choose: believe or not.

2. I've had 10 years of formal theological training in two universities, majoring in dogmatics and ecumenical theology but spending almost equal time in exegesis and hermeneutics. I will not commit intellectual suicide by closing my eyes to the historical realities of the biblical text. Been there and done that. No more, there are too many false authoritarian issues in the camp of biblical fundamentalism (any fundamentalism) for my tastes.

3. Now to the subject at hand. To me it's a practical matter. Seraphim and Chris you understand what I mean when you realize that no, Jesus' words are not enough for me. If something starts in the gospels (they being YOUNGER than Pauls epistles), there should be something of substance in Paul. The verses Chris points out talk about the evil one, that we should guard ourselves with the armour of God etc. but *no specifics*. Same with the gospels, except for the strange little remark of Jesus to the apostles (you need to fast to cast this kind out) there are no specifics, no instructions on how to discern, how to deal with demons. There are, however, loads of instructions on how to deal with sinners, sick, poor, hypocrites ... My conclusion is that demons are on the fringes of the christian message. That from reading my bible, in translation and in the original.

4. Now, I would be a blind man, if I didn't think that the religions of Israels neighbors didn't influence Israels beliefsystem. Take Gen 1 for instance. That IS a text which deals with the Babylonian creation story, demythologizes it and puts a ONE god instead of all the natural deities, along with asserting the uniqueness of the Sabbath in the face of other, foreign holydays during the exile. Check out G. von Rad and younger commentaries for that one. My point being, Israels faith didn't fall out of the sky like Athene born fully clad out of Zeus' head. Nobody would have understood the whole "shebang" if there hadn't been dialogue and interaction.

5. My point being that the ancient hebrews did without demons, their faith in a strong God who is the scource of good AND evil, fortune and misfortune, light and darkness, was enough (check out Isaiah after ch. 40).

6. Soooo, excuse me if I keep my head clear of demons and look for psychological trauma for answers. I CAN and WILL pray, fast and do all possible as a christian minister if needed, if that will help a client, BUT, if I can explain an evil without mythological beings, I will. I've not been in situations like those described by FrMatt, but have worked with really sick people and in very sick surroundings. But even there, I find that evil is inherited as something taught and accustomed to rather than induced as by demons.

[Gina]

You may be interested in these two articles about the Orthodox perspective on evil and exorcism specifically.
Curiosity about Exorcism
Exorcism in the Orthodox Faith

I appreciated the explanation here that the Fathers' understanding of exorcism was comprehensive. As the articles explain, the most important "exorcism" we undergo is our baptism, and as believer-priests we exorcise evil--real, tangible, personal-- first of all through our continuing to live in grace and opposing evil in the world.

The rites of exorcism have certainly been taught, both in the Scripture and in the Tradition. One thing to bear in mind about them, I think, is that there is no such thing as a magical incantation in our faith. Unless it be simply the name of Jesus- but even there I suppose I'm on thin ice.