Closed on Sunday, part 2

Whew!  The controvsersy has really heated up throughout the blogosphere over this issue surrounding some megachurches choosing to be closed on Sunday, December 25th.

In particular, check out the 60+ comment posts at each of these sites:

Ben Witherington's Blog

Scot McNight's Jesus Creed

And... all the hoopla has even appeared now in a New York Times article by Laurie Goodstein.

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I'd love to hear your "read" on all the controversy, or any other thoughts you may have.

Comments

[Seraphim]

hmm. I wonder. I've heard more than one family (not in blog world but in real world) say, "I can always just worship at home with my family" (even a pastor friend of mine who's main objection is the entertainment worship team won't be available.

Wonder what would happen if 12 families stayed home this sunday, and when he called they said "well, I can just worship at home"

When I've said, don't we have an obligation to be a good witness? I was told we didn't owe the secular media anything...

this am reading your blog again I think werent' we told to 'always be ready to give an answer?' I think about how Christians today lament the fact we blew it as far as 'prayer in schools'. Now we can't even be open on Sunday because it's Christmas. I think because it's Christmas we should be open in spite of it being SUNDAY!

Yarg! LYB

Seraphim

[Chris]

Sometimes I wonder about the role that convenience should/shouldn't play in the life of the Church.

The effects of consumerism and individualism certainly seem involved here. And yet there seem to be several other principles, values, and what-not at work here as well: e.g. Christian liberty, missional mindset, financial stewardship, the "priority of family", etc.

A final thought: if Church is not where we meet but "who we are" -- then why doesn't "who" we are trump "when" we are? It seems to me that because of "who" we are, all other identities and priorities should take a second row seat.

[Jamie Arpin-Ricci]

It is an interesting dialogue, but I think people have made to big an issue on this. Most churches are celebrating on Christmas eve instead, and since Sabbath doesn't HAVE to fall on Sunday, why the hub-bub?

Check out Jordon Coopers take at:
http://www.jordoncooper.com/2005/12/when-christmas-falls-on-sunday.htm#links

Peace,
Jamie

[Chris]

Jamie, thanks for the link to Jordan's post. As always, he has something helpful to contribute.

In concluding, he comments that a lot of the hoopla my be driven by those wanting to simply pick on megachurches. That's a very good point. People often criticize those who are far more successful than they are, and try to find clever ways to do so.

But you know, Jamie, that's not what has grabbed my attention on this one. Church size or affliation seems irrelevant here.

Many folks are quoting scriptural evidence -- or the lack thereof -- but I I haven't seen anyone apply the principles of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral to this scenario.

Do you feel up to the task? (hint, hint!) :D

Blessings.

btw and off-subject: every time I visit your site, it just makes me want to whip out my 5 point trade blankets and don my capote! I absolutely love your banner and your blog concept.

[maryellen]

It is not just the mega churches, our little church on the Revervation has also opted to be closed Christmas Day...
Our Christmas Service will be on Friday evening. On Saturday my family will go to Midnight Mass at the Episcapol Church in town, the priest there is a devote Christian and a good friend. We are still looking for a Church to go to on Christmas Day. The Catholic in me believes that going to Church on Christmas, no matter what of day of the week it falls on, is an important part of the Celebration. So far, two of the area Baptist Churches and the United Methodist Church are closed on Dec. 25. None of those Churches are mega - with regular attendance less than 100. Ofcourse to me, Christmas is a much longer Holiday than just one day. It starts the weekend after Thanksgiving (not with shopping) and ends Dec. 31 which is our wedding anniverary-26 years-wow!

[Chris]

Maryellen --

Here's an early HAPPY ANNIVERSARY> goin' out to you and Art!

26 years? That's impressive. Congratulations!

[djchuang]

I woulda thunk that a reduction of Sunday services or going to a "family worship" format with no Sunday School and no childcare would be preferrable than to shutdown operations for the whole day. I'm one who has a family tradition of not staying home, but attending as many church services as possible. What about my family tradition?! :)

[Chris]

dj -- thanks for stopping by. And yes, what about your family tradition?! :D

Which has me wondering... what about the authority of "tradition" (i.e. big picture)as it relates to the importance of the Sunday gathering?

Which has me wondering about something else... I sure haven't heard much from our Orthodox brothers and sisters on this one. Maybe they're just kicking back, watching the fireworks, and having a good laugh!
;)

Blessings!

[tammy]

this topic has sparked quite a debate at theOOZE as well.

i was surprised at the intensity of these debates. it doesn't seem that important, that we should be arguing about it. some churches are closed, some are open. those of use who want to go, can go. those of us who want to stay home, can stay home.

freedom is a good thing. freedom means we won't all be alike. that's good! let's celebrate that instead of debating it.

[Chris]

Tammy,

I'm all for celebrating our freedom to be different. That's a very good reminder.

I suppose we're also free to debate -- or better -- to explore our differences and enjoy dialoging and sharpening one another. Unfortunately, when the dialog heats up too much, it can become hurtful or even divisive. That's certainly not worth celebrating.

I'll have to swing by TheOoze to see what all the hoopla looks like there. But I've gotta wonder... why has "this" topic seemed to hit such a nerve?

Have you (or anyone else else reading this comment) given any thought to this?

[Benjy]

I would most have to agree with Scot McNight and Tammy on this one. Scot really did a great job of summing up my thoughts and feelings, with a lot of good research to back it up!

I just don't see what the big deal is or that it really matters a whole lot. People that want to go can, it isn't like there is a shortage of churches in this country. Options and freedom are important to consider here.

By the way, I love the idea willowcreek has and made a dvd they are giving away for everyone to watch.

[Chris]

Benjy,

I'm not surprized. Scot is a masterful communicator with a terrific heart.

You'll also probably enjoy the excellent blog post on this topic by our friend Dan Edelen.

[Gina]

I'm realizing how truly different the Orthodox view of the liturgy is from what many Protestants think of what they're doing on Sunday mornings (or whenever).

So, it doesn't seem like there's much to comment on. It's comparing apples to oranges.

[tammy]

"why has "this" topic seemed to hit such a nerve? Have you (or anyone else else reading this comment) given any thought to this?"

my first inclination was to wonder why so many emerging voices were so critical of the mega churches closing on christmas. emerging is all about questioning tradition, so one would think they would be ok with this. the only explanation i have for this is that it's become cool to criticize mega churches ... that's sad.

my other thought is that Gina is right -- our views of what are actually doing on sunday mornings are so different that we can hardly discuss things related to it. since emerging things are reaching into all corners of the church world, we are discovering that we are very unlike each other. this is ok if we also remember the things which bind us together.

[Chris]

Gina, thanks for helping to explaining the Orthodox view (or lack thereof). ;)

In some ways, I'd guess, it must be liberating to not even have to contend with popular culture, with its pressures and expectations.

But now that I think about, I thought I read one of Pavel's recent posts on TheOoze that nonetheless revealed a bit of a struggle with such factors.

[Chris]

Tammy, you may be right in seeing people simply take advantage of a "fresh megachurch target". But among emerging types, it is rather surprising. In some instances, I'm sure, these churches are attempting to be "culturally sensitive" and are willing to drop "their" thing in deference. You'd think that emerging folks would praise them for it (I suppose a few have).

Hmmm. Tammy, I wonder if there is a subconscious fear within many folks -- in this age of deconstructing/reconstructing -- that we need to retain some anchor points, and that some of the hoopla is an understandable knee-jerk "reaction."

Just a thought.

[Seraphim]

Reading everything about it, I guess I argued from the standpoint that we always meet on Sundays. But I guess my argument for a Christmas Service would be more about having a Service on Christmas (it's a Feast Day!) whatever day it falls on, rather than belabouring the Sunday thing.

However, Sunday Liturgy for the Orthodox is not an option, tis a requirement. You can't go to a Saturday Liturgy to get out of the Sunday Liturgical obligation....

LYB

Seraphim

[Chris]

Seraphim, we Evangelicals seem to always be talking about our need to "focus" on Christ each Christmas, conceding that their are many pressures our consumeristic society places on us to do otherwise. It seems, then, that meeting with ones community of faith on Christmas to worship and celebrate together would be hugely important. But I guess that's just me. In good conscious, lots of people feel they have accomplished this -- just not on Christmas Day. It's God who looks on the heart, and so I have to resist the urge to do so.

Lord, have mercy on me.

[Seraphim]

But I guess that's just me. In good conscious, lots of people feel they have accomplished this -- just not on Christmas Day. It's God who looks on the heart, and so I have to resist the urge to do so. Lord, have mercy on me.

He will. May he have mercy on us all!

[Bald Man]

I just don't see what the big deal is or that it really matters a whole lot. People that want to go can, it isn't like there is a shortage of churches in this country. Options and freedom are important to consider here.

This is the same idea I jut brought up in Chris' other post. An important isue for me is our relationship to our churches. If my church is an adoptive family - a reunion of sisters and brothers adopted into Christ - then I can and can't just go to another church service. I can, because they too are part of my adoptive family; but I can't because for better or worse I don't have an ongoing relationship with them. We have common ground, but it's not like gathering with those I know well.

Example: It's the difference between my regular lunch bunch and a high school reunion. The four of us in the lunch bunch all graduated high school together. If the regular lunch was cancelled, I could certainly ring up a few other classmates. Despite the common ground, it wouldn't be the same as lunch with the regular gang.

I'm trusting that those who are closing have made wise choices. I know that many of them are gathering on Saturday. I also know that for some of them the Sunday gathering is less a family reunion/celebration and more a "public service announcement" (best phrase I can come up with to describe the seeker-oriented gathering; hopefully less charged than "advertisement" or "infomercial"), and that the family reunions occur at other times.

So, without throwing stones this is my (next) two cents.

[Fr. Stan]

I always laugh when people tell me they will just worship at home. For years i have been trying to get people to worship at home with their own families when it isnt a Sunday. And I can tell you its tough going.

My guess is that the home worhsip service will be in the following format:

1) Gifts for themselves
2) Watching TV
3) Feasting
4) Watching TV

Overall I find the closing for Christmas appalling, but not surprising. Ther are a couple mega-churches here in town and I have run across more than a few church growth consultants and pastors of churches trying to do all the church growth stuff. What keeps getting lost is that man was made to worship God and to be with God and His people, not to make giant churches. if the giant church happens, then good, but if it wont worship God then what use is it. isnt that leading people astray by example?

Working on Sundays and Christmas is part of the territory of being a Servant in the Church. It means you have terrible hours and that everyone else is served by you. you give up your life and your families life to do God's work - just like Jesus did. Its not a corporation: its a family and a kingdom of priests. Imagine a mother telling her infant, "Sorry I wont change your diapers, its my day off".

My solution for some of the Christmas fatigue the mega-pastors are feeling is that they either hire Christmas Pastors -or- just dont try to have a giant Hollywood Christmas spectacle (which they all do). You dont need it. Just sing everything acapella over the microphone (so the band gets the day off) and actually make people worship instead of spectating. Then actually do some worship and do a simple sermon. It is amazingly simple.

[Seraphim]

clapps hands, whitles and stomps feet

Well said Fr. Stan! Well said!

LYB

Seraphim

[pavel/addai]

"But now that I think about, I thought I read one of Pavel's recent posts on TheOoze that nonetheless revealed a bit of a struggle with such factors"

I didn't like the closing story when I first heard it because it first sounded like "big business". Like Mac Church will be closed on Christmas, the 4 th of July etc.

In reading more I realize this is quite the case. They are have a few extra services to make up for Christmas. But that is still what it looks like to most people at the start. I think it makes the mega churches look like department stores and other secular institutions.

[pavel/addai]

quote
Seraphim, we Evangelicals seem to always be talking about our need to "focus" on Christ each Christmas, conceding that their are many pressures our consumeristic society places on us to do otherwise. It seems, then, that meeting with ones community of faith on Christmas to worship and celebrate together would be hugely important. But I guess that's just me. In good conscious, lots of people feel they have accomplished this -- just not on Christmas Day. It's God who looks on the heart, and so I have to resist the urge to do so.
quote

Well you could always join us in fasting the weeks that lead up to it. That sort of makes you focus and get ahold of all that consumerism. Maybe Evangelicals need more fasting..... ! :)

[pavel/addai]

"Overall I find the closing for Christmas appalling, but not surprising. Ther are a couple mega-churches here in town and I have run across more than a few church growth consultants and pastors of churches trying to do all the church growth stuff. What keeps getting lost is that man was made to worship God and to be with God and His people, not to make giant churches. if the giant church happens, then good, but if it wont worship God then what use is it. isnt that leading people astray by example?"

Yes if people want the Orthodox position this is it here.

quote
Working on Sundays and Christmas is part of the territory of being a Servant in the Church. It means you have terrible hours and that everyone else is served by you. you give up your life and your families life to do God's work - just like Jesus did. Its not a corporation: its a family and a kingdom of priests. Imagine a mother telling her infant, "Sorry I wont change your diapers, its my day off".
quote

good point and I said this also on the ooze. Remember both our dads who often worked 60 hour weeks to make their missle or radar programs be on schedule! Pastors really do not have it worse than other professions. Who must work late, be called in on emergencies, must work during holidays etc.